VS Saxton Hale Rewrite: Feedback/Suggestion/Discussion Megathread

42

Badge Whore
Senior Dev
Donator
Developer
A nodifier that lets hales penetrate the Dead Ringer
Having a modifier that gives an upside to only 1 class/weapon is usually not a great idea, as everyone can just not play as that class, or using it just fucks you over

Maybe give cooldown for airblast to all flamethrowers, like the Dragon's Fury has?
Current VSH-Rewrite have a 250% airblast rate/cooldown penalty as i said, but it didnt really help much

Pain Train - -10% damage taken
I'm saying that only upside pain train have is the +1 cap, while capture point is perma disabled because of the dome replacement

Manmelter - flarejump
I myself really hate the flarejump in VSH-Legacy because of how you can spam fly away with airblast & detonator. Adding flarejump but with whatever big nerf can really depends.

Vita-Saw - some % uber on spawn or gain some % after uber depleted or uber lasts longer or a combination of these
Likely going for faster uber rate or longer duration, while also giving the health penalty more effect, enough to still get 1 hit while overhealed

Increasing damage or AoE of Glitched Robot's grenades might also help
Candy Cane - drop small medkit
Solemn Vow - can see hale's rage % (in legacy)
Frontier Justice - crit when sentry is locked onto something (in legacy)
Cleaners Carbine - greater kukri jump height during active buff, minicrits or no buff instead of crits
Spy-cicle - stuns (freezes hale similiar to paini's eating stun) or slow downs hale after 2 successful stabs, less damage
All sounds like a good idea to use
 

Likveh

͘
Donator
I'm saying that only upside pain train have is the +1 cap, while capture point is perma disabled because of the dome replacement
it's an upside decreasing damage taken by 10%, so soldier might be able to rocketjump away even after being hit.
 

Kinu

P.L.A.Y
Remove/Nerf Dome, it promotes stalling more than it punishes it.

Lots of Hales right now are taking their sweet time hiding from the general crowd to pick off Scouts and Snipers who are away from their team, causing a boring game of "Who can beat the 20k health Hale inside the dome?".

If you need a fix against hiding Scouts, Spies, Engineers, etc., I think it would be more appropriate to restrict the dome down to 3 or less players. As it's used right now, Hales will not kill anyone in the main crowd and just wait out his time for dome so he can get an easy Winstreak. I've seen it multiple times now and it's honestly an undeserved victory at this point. Hale is not affected by the dome as he can circle along the edges of it and force people to chase him which favors Hale massively thanks to his movement speed and 0 knockback.

Whatever problems occurred before the dome was added, I believe the way it works right now is simply not fun. It doesn't prevent stalling, it encourages it.

TL;DR Dome shouldn't activate based on a timer, it should activate based on remaining player count. If 3 people are left, dome automatically activates - something like that.
 

Zane Truesdale

That one mofo you forget exists
Donator
IMO the dome would be better off activating at the start of the round or early into it. This way people won't stall until the dome triggers.

Also the speed of the dome could be affected by playercount (less players = faster dome) to try and speed things up
 

Samy

Argentina Lad that has a hell lot of ping.
Donator
Remove/Nerf Dome, it promotes stalling more than it punishes it.
I am not 42,but if Dome gets removed posiblly it can be worse,since you can have a Spy,Engi,or Sniper just running around and wasting more time,Specially with Spies since they can be invisible and just basicilly be Hide and Seek

Dome shouldn't activate based on a timer, it should activate based on remaining player count. If 3 people are left, dome automatically activates - something like that.
I dont think it's really based on some kind of timer really,Like,Dome can easily activate when Hale is hiding around,or if it's a normal round like any other without hale hiding,then dome can take a while.
Personally i think it's based around what is happining on the rounds.
While with the ''3 players left so dome activates'' it isn't a bad idea,but it's a bit bad since it can go for some good minutes until 3 players can be remain (unless it's a good player and kills almost everyone fast)
Post automatically merged:

Also the speed of the dome could be affected by playercount (less players = faster dome) to try and speed things up
Im Thinking about the Opositive of what you said.
And that is depending about the players alive(Example,There is 19 Players alive,Dome can go faster,but not like super fast,just a bit faster than normal speed dome,or if it's 7 or below,it can go just normal speed)
 
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42

Badge Whore
Senior Dev
Donator
Developer
Remove/Nerf Dome, it promotes stalling more than it punishes it.

Lots of Hales right now are taking their sweet time hiding from the general crowd to pick off Scouts and Snipers who are away from their team, causing a boring game of "Who can beat the 20k health Hale inside the dome?".

If you need a fix against hiding Scouts, Spies, Engineers, etc., I think it would be more appropriate to restrict the dome down to 3 or less players. As it's used right now, Hales will not kill anyone in the main crowd and just wait out his time for dome so he can get an easy Winstreak. I've seen it multiple times now and it's honestly an undeserved victory at this point. Hale is not affected by the dome as he can circle along the edges of it and force people to chase him which favors Hale massively thanks to his movement speed and 0 knockback.

Whatever problems occurred before the dome was added, I believe the way it works right now is simply not fun. It doesn't prevent stalling, it encourages it.

TL;DR Dome shouldn't activate based on a timer, it should activate based on remaining player count. If 3 people are left, dome automatically activates - something like that.
I did notice myself some people intended to stall for easy kill in small spot as Hale with scare rage, Vagineer with sentry, Glitched robot with grenades, etc.

Several people already told me solutions to fix it but i doubt none would work:
- Make dome speed slower for red team to attack, boss will just hide and stall even longer.
- Slow dome speed If red team attacks boss, but can still hide and not take damage.
- Readd min cap size, but if we have boss and 1 player doing nothing but staring at eachother while dome is at same size as CP prop, sounds like something went wrong or we have friendlies.

Though one idea we can try, only for boss:
- Remove the "damage increases by standing outside of dome longer" idea, as that doesn't really help much when boss can just keep hop out and back in
- The smaller the dome gets, the more damage it deals to boss
- Damage scales by amount of health boss have

One concern for me though, is whenever if boss can still keep himself inside dome and hide somewhere for it to not take damage.

Still looking into more ideas/discussions for it
 

Zane Truesdale

That one mofo you forget exists
Donator
I did notice myself some people intended to stall for easy kill in small spot as Hale with scare rage, Vagineer with sentry, Glitched robot with grenades, etc.

Several people already told me solutions to fix it but i doubt none would work:
- Make dome speed slower for red team to attack, boss will just hide and stall even longer.
- Slow dome speed If red team attacks boss, but can still hide and not take damage.
- Readd min cap size, but if we have boss and 1 player doing nothing but staring at eachother while dome is at same size as CP prop, sounds like something went wrong or we have friendlies.

Though one idea we can try, only for boss:
- Remove the "damage increases by standing outside of dome longer" idea, as that doesn't really help much when boss can just keep hop out and back in
- The smaller the dome gets, the more damage it deals to boss
- Damage scales by amount of health boss have

One concern for me though, is whenever if boss can still keep himself inside dome and hide somewhere for it to not take damage.

Still looking into more ideas/discussions for it
Wasn't the dome supposed to instakill non-boss players at first? I'd say either do that or have the dome start at the beginning of the round and gradually get faster as more players get killed.

It could also deal a fixed amount of damage per second as opposed to a scaling amount so people don't jump in and out of it to reduce damage
 

42

Badge Whore
Senior Dev
Donator
Developer
have the dome start at the beginning of the round and gradually get faster as more players get killed.
The whole point of the dome is to prevent any stallers for both boss and attack team. If boss have not been into killing much, dome will just shrink faster.
 

Kinu

P.L.A.Y
I think the issue of dome isn't fixed by increasing damage to hale because of exactly what you said: Hales sit on the far edge of the dome, away from all players and avoid getting damaged by it altogether until it completely circles in on the control point. At that point, Hale can outstall the survivors regardless of the dome's scaling damage to him. If he has 17/20k health because he stalls at the edge of the dome he's going to play the waiting game and kill you. If you try to pursue him, he either A) instantly kills you because he's much faster than you or B) run away even more because right mouse jumps let him get to terrain that most classes can't get to. Prominent example of this was Mann Co HQ where Hales would sit behind the building and super jump onto it the moment people found them.

The more considerate thought here should be to punish people who intentionally stall the game out to be a dick. Cloaks like CnD are disabled and Deadringer is the fairest of them all, leaving only the normal invis watch which wouldn't be so damn OP if L'Etranger was nerfed a little bit. It's seriously only L'Etranger that causes Spies to freak out like this and stall with near infinite cloak.

Engi has 0 knockback resulting in an easy death if he tries to camp somewhere, Scout is inherently slower than Hale so a good Hale has no problems killing a Scout.

I think the only stalling issue this server might have is Spies for the reason I just told you. Everything else is Hale's responsibility to get better at, like tracking Scouts.

If someone actually stalls by just cloak camping in a corner, shouldn't the "No friendly" rule apply here and they should be punished instead of taxing everyone else with the dome? Because I understand what kind of problems you're looking out for in VSH, but these problems are very player specific and have less to do with the class itself but the person playing it.

As far as my 5000-6000 VSH hours of experience on the old plugin go, I've always felt and was very reassured that Hale (with any margin of experience) is at a complete advantage. He can shut down half the classes just by right mouse jumping and the plugin we currently use makes Rage so powerful that I could get press rage, go in the kitchen, make myself a coffee and come back and still get a kill on someone.

I personally detest the dome because it does what I dislike about VSH the most, it rewards Hale for refusing to do his job which is killing people.


A fix I proposed to another server ages ago on how to fix Hale from stalling (without removing the dome even) was this:
Add a feature that gradually depletes Hale's health when he doesn't kill people/is in an effective range of people and call it Bloodthirst.

Similar to how Painis regenerates health when he eats people, you could reward Hale minorly (100 health each kill?) for getting kills all while punishing him for stalling the game. If Hale hasn't killed someone in the last 20-40 seconds, he gradually loses health to a strong bleeding effect that deals around 0.5% of his max health every tick. That would mean that at the pace which bleed works at Hale would lose around 5% of his maximum life within 5 seconds if he refuses to fight. In other words, do that shit for a minute and you'll lose 60% of your maximum life and become a free kill once the dome is on the cp.

If that seems too overpowered (I personally don't think it is), the alternative would be current health% bleed which means the higher his health is the stronger the bleeding is until eventually the bleeding is really weak at low health.

As far as I know, this feature was actually used in The Hidden gamemode to prevent The Hidden from being a camping dickhead to people. You might even be able to just implement it 1:1 but I wouldn't know because I haven't worked with TF2 plugins yet.
 

Vel

The new guy
A lot of issues with the dome in its current state have already been mentioned by Kinu and I do recognize that it makes staffs time easier as there is less and less reports about stalling in vsh, but as it stands it promotes unhealthy and unengaging gameplay.

A possible solution that would keep staff reports about stalling lower would be to have the dome spawn in AFTER the point has been captured, regardless of what side captures it. This would mean that the capture point is still in the game but doesn’t just instantly win the game and the red team still have the opportunity to win if hale captures the point.
If this interaction is added in it would fix

  • Hales killing only part of red team and then playing passive for the rest of the game, allowing the dome to bring red team into an (usually) unfavorable area. This strategy is used quite often as hale from what I have seen.
  • Would mean that every round isn’t “Build up by the CP” at the start of the round.
  • Would prevent red team from hiding, this works both ways as red team can also capture and summon the dome.
This feature may be hard to implement but I believe it would lower the number of rounds that have stallers and would also make the game more enjoyable for both sides.
 

Kinu

P.L.A.Y
A possible solution that would keep staff reports about stalling lower would be to have the dome spawn in AFTER the point has been captured
The problem is that depending on the map this isn't a solution but a straight up inevitable advantage for Hale. You need to stop him from capturing and a lot of maps have control points in closed off buildings and such. This would force players to seek out Hale while he's capturing and get him free kills because any situation where a player is forced to get into close or mid range of Hale favors him.

The other problem with this is that red team should never have the opportunity to turn on the dome. We have some really shitty people in the community who like to troll a lot and this would complicate the mode much more than when it's automated.

Ergo, we'll be seeing Red Scouts go on CP and Schadenfreude taunt while turning on the dome against everyone's wishes.

The upside of having an opportunity to zone out Hale on the control point is very low if not a disadvantage altogether. He's fast, he has rage, he appreciates a mass of people gathering on one spot to stop him, I.E. the CP.

Let's take Mann Co HQ for an example because the map servers as a perfect example of what's wrong with the dome and the CP.



Hale can sit on the point, wait out his chance at killing the first person that tries to stop him from capturing. People that block the CP from being captured will be instantly killed or rage killed, people that stand outside of the CP's capture range will have to pile up on the one opening where they can shoot him. Usually the heavy artillery like Heavy and Demoman do not pick fights without a crowd and when they do they are easy pickings, so for the sake of the argument lets say 7 people shoot Hale from the one opening to scare him off the control point.

Now he has 7 people free to rage and kill.

Scenario 2, Medics


Medic ubers Pyro to prevent Hale from capturing. Now all Hale needs to do is jump behind the fence and stall out the uber, then jump back to the point and capture it.

Scenario 3, everyone shoots him from different openings.


Now Hale has the free choice to pick between who he'd like to kill first. Everytime people close in, he jumps out to kill someone. Anyone daring to come and prevent him from capping it (Which he caps at 3x speed by the way, so good luck stopping him in time) is gonna get shit on by their instant kill

Basically, there is no way in my opinion that lets you balance vsh around the Hale capturing CP. It's an exploitable tool for Hale and completely unfavorable for the players.

The only way a control point can fix Hale's camping is by disabling it for Hale and enabling it for an instant win for the players all while keeping the automated dome enabled.

This would prevent Hale from stalling out the game if a group of players camp the control point to capture it. Hale would have to keep an eye on the point at all times (and for the sake of balance the capture time would have to be absurdly long so people can't capture it in 5 seconds) while trying to kill people, otherwise his stalling will be punished with a loss. It would add another element of challenge to Hale, but with our current roster of bosses that are somewhat overpowered with attributes like "Electric" letting them cash in easy wins, I don't feel like watching a control point that takes a long time to capture is a huge deal for a good Hale. It's a tool used to scare off camping Hales that try to get Winstreaks being cheap.
 

Zane Truesdale

That one mofo you forget exists
Donator
On a side note, some suggestions for the coin:
  • Choosing what Hale you get to be and what player fights alongside you if a Dual Boss is chosen.
  • All hale special round. Everyone is a hale with 2000-3000 hp and they beat the crap out of each other.
Also wanna suggest something that might be tough to do again: allowing RPS.
I fully understand and agree with why this was disabled since watching the last surviving player do a dozen rounds of RPS when the hale can just punch him and win, but I do believe it could work if the following changes were made:
  1. It can only be used when 1 player is left standing and the dome is active
  2. It instakills the hale