VS Saxton Hale Rewrite: Feedback/Suggestion/Discussion Megathread

unitgon

again & again
Server Moderator
Donator
#1
Hi there boys and girls,

Seems like there's a number of people requesting a centralised and organised place where feedback and suggestions on VSH Rewrite can be discussed.
I guess I'll open that discussion this time, but if any member feels like there's a need for discussion about other gamemodes then feel free to claim that.

Keep in mind that constructive criticism is very much appreciated.
Buncha MVPs in our community are working hard on this and we are appreciating that they are putting in this effort! :)

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Alright here goes my feedback. I'm very happy with what's being made, and love the new features. Things like special rounds make it feel fresh.

It seems like rounds go "good" and balanced on a certain player count and a little bit too skewed to the not-boss team, and a lot of players seem to think it's because of new health calculations. Is it a possibility to bring back the old boss health calculation system, or to base the new system on the old values, and to tweak that slightly for what's new?
 
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#2
Even though the gamemode by itself feels pretty good to play on, I got to say that many weapon balances just doesn't make sense, in the matter that it doesn't fit the purpose of the class, gives too much of an handicap to the player, or is just straight up a crutch, which I find it to be retarded (cf. My way of saying it doesn't make sense. I'm targeting specific people here who quite don't get it because they can't think rationally).

- The BFB slows you down so hard that when fully-charged, you move as fast as a Heavy. Why even bother with that weapon anyway ?

- The Winger slows you down too, but not as hard as the previous wep. But again, why picking a weapon that revolves around gaining mobility if it is to be then a straight downgrade of the Pistol in that specific field ?

- The Engie can rocket jump, and it just gives a free "Get out of jail" card for the said player because he can straight up build a sentry and rocket jump around the map, and still deal damage reliably without having to face the boss directly ! Let's just say it defeats the purpose of the Soldier in general (But that may be up to debate), and also makes the Engineer not fun to play against when you're the boss.

- The Sniper can rocket jump too. Am I supposed to explain why a class that can already deal high damage from long and mid range shouldn't be able to use that kind of move ? Also, he can already climb walls, please.

- I can understand why the Natascha is banned from Rewrite, but can the gamemode tell me I have the Stock equipped ?
When you equipped that wep during the previous gamemode, and then are stuck with a weapon that you didn't even picked without any warning, I can tell it feels unwarranted, and therefore unpleasing.
It's like if the GM throws a rock at you and says "No, you %&€#in' don't pick that weapon, you filthy piece of..." and then leaves you alone in the bush, in your own mess.
Plus, as a Heavy main, I got to say the Stock is my least favorite of miniguns. I know, that's a quite unpopular opinion.

- Why does the Zatoichi does not give health back ? This basically gives no reason for that sword to be used at all.

- Talkin' about swords, the only one that is actually viable is the Eyelander because it rewards you with higher mobility and Max HP, which actually brings up one simple question : Can we give to the other swords reasons to be used instead of the Eyelander ?

- Suggestion here for Heavy, but to encourage a wider variety of secondaries to the class, why not add a stat to every shotgun that allows them to be deployed even if the minigun is spinned-up (Example : You shoot with your minigun, and then instantly switch to your shotgun even though you were firing to give yourself some additional mobility and combo potential).
That could allow Heavy to get more technical by allowing follow-ups between his primary, secondary and melee ! Also, I'm sick of seeing most Heavies equipping the Sandvich and the Banana when you actually have options that can be better in the right situation, like the Dalokohs Bar which I find to be very underrated for what it can actually do, as it is imo basically a better 2nd Banana as the additional 50HP makes you far more tankier than expected, especially if you pair it with Natascha or Brass.
Also, think about it, the faster deploying speed of the Panic Attack paired with that suggested stat could actually make it a great tool for Heavy's arsenal if you're willing to do some combos at your own risk.

I technically could say more stuff about Rewrite, but hey, guess I got to try different things to see how stuff holds up with different weapons and mechanics before adding more to what I already pointed out and suggested.
 

KDairy

It's getting saucy in here
#3
Alright so first of all I'd like to talk about the things that I can't say for certain and just go off how I feel:

Scout:
Make the BFB like in regular gamemodes but make it so once hale uses rage you instantly lose all boost. I feel like that will make it easy to have good mobility yet not too much of a pain to kill.

Soldier:
Battalion's Backup is a good idea, love it.

Pyro:
Increase deploy time on thermal thruster so it's harder to just pull out and fly away when things head south

Heavy:
Buff the melees, they all feel worthless except for the gru

Sniper:
Playing rifle sniper is quite powerful on a lowish player count, but that may just be health calc being bad. Snipers feel currently a bit too slippery, but that may just be me.

Spy:
Spies can clutch on a small player count aswell, but I feel this is more down to the dead ringer giving the stupid abilities it does. You should not fly the whole map, as this means spies can solo low health hales with their revolver easily.

Now here's what I know for sure:

Pyro is not fun to play against at all. Airblast feels incredibly hard to work around other than waiting for rage or for them to do something stupid. Not being able to collect ammo while their flamethrower is out and/or nerfing airblast cost feels appropriate.

Hale's health needs to be tuned more appropriately.

Vagineer:
Reverse controls doesn't feel fun and doesn't even work. When I press up I move a bit up before moving backwards. This makes your movement incredibly glitchy, stuttered and in general this rage is just bad.

The double hale w the soldier/demo is too hard for low pop groups and too easy for high pop groups. Limiting it to a player count of 20+ and then buffing it seems a good idea, but I haven't played this boss enough to know the fine details, I just know the amount of players basically determines the outcome currently.

Gonna play this gamemode some more, if it comes to me I'll write another but for now these are my comments. Thanks for reading if you did.
 

Idiot Cube

The new guy
Donator
#4
Vagineer:
Reverse controls doesn't feel fun and doesn't even work. When I press up I move a bit up before moving backwards. This makes your movement incredibly glitchy, stuttered and in general this rage is just bad.
For me, it doesn't let me move at all. No matter what direction I press, I end up flickering back and forth on the spot, essentially frozen in place. Which inevitably leads to a golden wrench in the face.
 

Just a BLU Toon

Cherry is top tier waifu
Donator
#5
For me, it doesn't let me move at all. No matter what direction I press, I end up flickering back and forth on the spot, essentially frozen in place. Which inevitably leads to a golden wrench in the face.
If I recall correctly, I think a developer said it also depends on your current ping, which affects it greatly. That itself is awful, in all honesty, putting more of a disadvantage on players that can't do anything about their internet.
 

woo

Warming up
Donator
#6
Having played a bunch of OzFur's VSH Remake back then, I really appreciate what Benoist is going for with Rewrite, and despite the balancing issues people have already posted here (and some more from in-server complaints), I really enjoy it! With that said, I won't go into the balancing issues and instead I'll just talk about a couple of things that I think can be done better.

Vagineer's rage: this is likely the issue that people complain about the most, and even though I don't think the reverse controls gimmick itself is "bad" or even "unfun" because it's just an unique way of messing with your movement instead of just being a regular stun, I do understand that when paired with rubberbanding-like movement, taking effect on the entire map and its spammability, it can get overwhelming and sometimes frustrating to play against.

Back when I played VSH Remake, I used to play on an australian server where I had about 350-400 ping (they later introduced US servers so I didn't play with that much ping all the time, dw), and even there I don't remember Vagineer's rage feeling as glitchy as it does in Rewrite (though I usually have high ping in here anyway, but people with decent ping also complain about it). Possibly a different method of blocking/cancelling people's original input?

In my opinion, the jittery client-side vs server-side movement is the main issue with the rage effect, and if no workaround can be found for it, another rage effect should replace it.

The gamemode gives very little information to players: VSH Rewrite changes so many things, but as of now it doesn't really put a good effort of telling players about the custom mechanics. Think about people who come from and/or watch surny's stream, for example. Some of them might be familiar with VSH/FF2 but, since Rewrite is exclusive to Red Sun, they might miss some of the obscure stuff the gamemode has to offer unless a regular who happens to be in the server at the time bothers to explain stuff to them.

A suggestion would be to include a menu that has all class changes like regular VSH does and/or, something I believe was done pretty well in VSH Remake: to make it so if you're spectating someone, one or a few custom abilities of the class the person is playing show up in the screen (like "Rockets aimed directly at bosses will always crit." or "The Medic can amplify the Engineer's buildings' effects by healing them."), and if you're spectating the boss, its rage and passive abilities are neatly explained instead. To those who don't know how it looked like, here's an example of both cases:
this boss has no model because it was a wip at the time, just using it as an example
Of course, this shouldn't be as much of a priority as balancing the gamemode, but I just think it's important to let those who don't play as often as some know about most of what it has to offer.
 

42

Badge Whore
Senior Dev
Donator
Developer
#7
So i finally got myself the code, here my current thoughts on how rewrite balances could've been better and to not break the code horribly.

I'm still happy to take feedback/suggestions from you all on my current thought or improvements to VSH Rewrite itself, I just have to deal with OP weapons at the start. (I haven't done anything to the code yet)

Scout
The BFB slows you down so hard that when fully-charged, you move as fast as a Heavy. Why even bother with that weapon anyway ?
Make the BFB like in regular gamemodes but make it so once hale uses rage you instantly lose all boost. I feel like that will make it easy to have good mobility yet not too much of a pain to kill.
I do agree that the speed nerf is too much. Give back the full speed, but give meter a small decay over time, and reset meter if raged from hale.

Soldier
Buff Banner - Very nice feature, but if done in small or cramped place you can easily net 3k dmg or more with crit boost (aim directly at hale, medic ubers). I suggest during buff effect, don't allow rockets to deal crit, but minicrit instead, similar to Cow Mangler.
Battalion's Backup - fun feature, but using more than once can get overspammed and annoying. Either add a limit on max alive scouts at once, or spawn less scouts as you use backup more.

Pyro
Pyro is not fun to play against at all. Airblast feels incredibly hard to work around other than waiting for rage or for them to do something stupid. Not being able to collect ammo while their flamethrower is out and/or nerfing airblast cost feels appropriate.
Airblast is one way you can use to escape from hale, but i do agree you can very easily spam it. I suggest to start with no airblast resistances on hale, but airblasting gives him more resistances until 2-3 airblasts gives him 100%, with a small decay as time passes.

Demoman
Grenade Launcher - Full crit is obviously way too much, nerf it down to minicrit
Why does the Zatoichi does not give health back ? This basically gives no reason for that sword to be used at all.
pretty useless weapon yeah, will add heal on hit

Heavy
Suggestion here for Heavy, but to encourage a wider variety of secondaries to the class, why not add a stat to every shotgun that allows them to be deployed even if the minigun is spinned-up (Example : You shoot with your minigun, and then instantly switch to your shotgun even though you were firing to give yourself some additional mobility and combo potential).
Faster spin up time (similar to Tomislav) or faster switch speed from minigun may be enough for it.

Engineer
The Engie can rocket jump, and it just gives a free "Get out of jail" card for the said player because he can straight up build a sentry and rocket jump around the map, and still deal damage reliably without having to face the boss directly ! Let's just say it defeats the purpose of the Soldier in general (But that may be up to debate), and also makes the Engineer not fun to play against when you're the boss.
Only rescue ranger allows you to rocket jump, and really the only way to escape from hale while you also take self damage, which i'm fine with it. Though i haven't seen much people using it so bit hard to judge.

Medic
Medigun - Perma crit & uber is obviously too much, as you can have 14 crit stickies at anytime to easily win. I suggest changing crit into minicrit and allow all class to have minicrit, along with uber nerf to 75% defense buff

Sniper
The Sniper can rocket jump too. Am I supposed to explain why a class that can already deal high damage from long and mid range shouldn't be able to use that kind of move ? Also, he can already climb walls, please.
Not a big difference for me when you can already wallclimb and arrow jumping also take self damage, i'm fine with it.

Spy
Backstab - Current damage is very weak, increase backstab damage but not as much as old VSH.
YER - People said getting 4 stabs is hard to get, which is supposed to be hard afterall, but i suggest to not announce hale when backstabed, similar to how YER works in normal gameplay.

Hale
currently hale can use rage a lot, which isn't really that fun to fight against, so i would reduce number of rage used

a lot of players seem to think it's because of new health calculations. Is it a possibility to bring back the old boss health calculation system, or to base the new system on the old values, and to tweak that slightly for what's new?
Hale's health needs to be tuned more appropriately.
Hale's health may be a bit weak, but with some nerfs i mentioned above it may be fine, plus there no winstreak system yet which i would increase hale's health once winstreak gets added.

Painis
Painis can be almost unkillable with his uber duration and heals when eating bodies, either reduce uber duration or reduce health gained from bodies.

Vagineer
Reverse controls doesn't feel fun and doesn't even work. When I press up I move a bit up before moving backwards. This makes your movement incredibly glitchy, stuttered and in general this rage is just bad.
this is likely the issue that people complain about the most, and even though I don't think the reverse controls gimmick itself is "bad" or even "unfun" because it's just an unique way of messing with your movement instead of just being a regular stun, I do understand that when paired with rubberbanding-like movement, taking effect on the entire map and its spammability, it can get overwhelming and sometimes frustrating to play against.

Back when I played VSH Remake, I used to play on an australian server where I had about 350-400 ping (they later introduced US servers so I didn't play with that much ping all the time, dw), and even there I don't remember Vagineer's rage feeling as glitchy as it does in Rewrite (though I usually have high ping in here anyway, but people with decent ping also complain about it). Possibly a different method of blocking/cancelling people's original input?

In my opinion, the jittery client-side vs server-side movement is the main issue with the rage effect, and if no workaround can be found for it, another rage effect should replace it.
Probably not easy to fix the glichy movement. But apparently it possible to fix it so may give it a try, otherwise we would need a new rage.

Glitched Robot
The weakest hale, Grenade launcher is really the only thing you get from rage, which is not that helpful. Backup's defense buff may be enough for it.

The gamemode gives very little information to players: VSH Rewrite changes so many things, but as of now it doesn't really put a good effort of telling players about the custom mechanics.
...
Yeah a balance list somewhere is needed, but not in the priority list now.
 

Drakonis

Warming up
Donator
#8
Maybe replace the pyro airblast resistance with the same airblast freshrate than the Dragon's fury, this way everyone will have to know when is the right time to airblast and not just spam it.
 

ChaoticMoonz

Eldritch Berserker
#9
My thoughts for the 9 Classes:

Scout: Personally, I find that the Guillo is rarely if not, never used. I can see why due to the requirement of aiming at the right moment but maybe something can be done to make it useful but not overused/overpowered.

Soldier: The Banners are pretty good. Mantreads is like a Hale Stomp but is like a Backstab/Garden. I tend to see that Soldiers rocket jump away a lot which can get annoying since it will become a game of Cat and Mouse.

Pyro: Too much airblasting. Either nerf airblast as stated by others, or give Hale more airblast resistance but not too much resistance to the point where Hale doesn't even get pushed back (also stated by others). I think increase the cost of airblasting like with Degreaser.

Demo: I tend to hate the Loose Cannon knockback mostly since its like airblast but does damage. Don't know what to say about stickies.

Heavy: Minigun shouldn't rip Hale's Health since crit minigun does an insane amount of Damage. Melee weapons are almost never used besides GRU/Reskins. Buff the melees imo.

Engi: Sentry Nests can get very tedious for certain Hales. Mostly due to the fact that fellow teammates can push Hale back making Engi clearing hard unless you kill them at the start.

Medic: As 42 said, uber + crits is insane. Maybe giving certain abilities to certain Mediguns like just Uber with Stock and Crits to target or Mini-Crit aura with Kritz. Not sure about Quick-Fix.

Sniper: Snipers are meant to stay in the back which is understandable. Huntsman/Compound having Explosive arrows is suicidal though it does good damage. Sniper Rifles can get some reworks or buffs/nerfs.

Spy: Invis-Watches can be overpowered as you can eat Hale's damage. Revolvers can get some buffs and nerfs mostly with L'etranger being able to restore cloak thus being able to spam Cloaks and Dead Ringers. Not sure about the other revolvers like Enforcer and Amby.
 
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tactic

Severe Autism
Donator
#10
Maybe replace the pyro airblast resistance with the same airblast freshrate than the Dragon's fury, this way everyone will have to know when is the right time to airblast and not just spam it.
cheers for posting while I didn't have the time <̶3̶ but now that I do..

please ignore me making obvious grammar mistakes as I'm quite tired and wrote the whole thing while playing smash & randomiser.
Vagineer
Current rage needs to be scrapped imo
reverse controls are really buggy, and would require a lot of effort to get it to the point of functionality. It will most likely never reach the point where it works perfectly, so it should be forgotten about as soon as possible.

the ability to reverse sentries is an interesting idea, except that it's a very inconsistent ability, depending on a wide variety of different factors.
and giving one engineer the ability to cost his team the game is.. far too unfair for the rest of the team, and I'm sure there are people who would use this and cost their team the game on purpose/accidentally.

some people on the discord (and I'm adding this for the sake of documentation, not credit taking) have suggested a new rage that spawns in a sentry, however, if this were too strong or too weak, it would either feel disconnected from vagineer's kit, making it boring to use, or too dependant, making it a chore to use. I think the sentry should be weak, but the rage would be given another attribute to make up for it.

tl;dr: the rage is god-awful and needs replacing, a few people have suggested giving him a new rage that spawns a powerful sentry, however, I believe if this were to be added, a second effect would be necessary as an excuse to make the sentry slightly weak, to prevent it from feeling too independent and therefore unfuN to use, like a separate part of Vagineer's kit.

his rage is sometimes laggy on full servers so like, fix that I guess??
his rage is far too spammable. it's a huge annoyance having a game drag on for longer than necessary because you had to wait x amount of time for Painis' rage to end every 15 seconds.

also, allowing him to instantly eat all nearby corpses is a bit much, maybe reduce the healing he gains from them while raged.

only one big issue with his rage:
one pyro, or rather a group of pyros that like to spam arblast can increase his uber duration to the end of time, this is really frustrating, unfair for everyone else and has no true counter other than hale killing them.
maybe increase his arblast resist while raged, but decrease the duration added to his rage, arblast will be slightly less effective, but it'll mean the match isn't dragged on so much.

add them as some sort of special round/summonable via saxton hale coin
Seedier's rage easily outclasses Seeman's so..
Nerf seedier's minions by giving them normal player size and 200 hp, making them less reliable
Buff Seeman's rage somehow, maybe increase the range? therefore making it more reliable.
nerf health from 50% each to somewhere around 40% for reasons that need not stating.

reduce max hp to 0

remove CnD, it has no reason for being there and a direct upgrade to the cloak is ridiculous.
buff backstab to be slightly stronger.
Cloak being a direct upgrade to the DR is ridiculous, it can take more shots, be activated any time and also makes you invisible.
as it can be activated at any time and make you invisible (whenever you want), the aspects of it being an escape/enter tool should be buffed, while it's ability to block shots should be nerfed.

Bat Backup is a great idea, but could do with being less spammy.
Buff Banner is also a great idea, but is far too powerful, allowing Soldiers to easily get 2-3k damage, it's even possible to reach 7k!
you could either nerf the rockets, or just reduce the amount of rockets making it look less like some sort of wild admin abuse, while also nerfing the absurd damage.
Conch needs a buff to match the alternate banners, maybe have it also give Kritz? or even give Kritz to surrounding teammates, but only giving Soldier uber?

Saving this for when new bosses have a possibility of being added, as I do believe announcer needs some changes.
 

42

Badge Whore
Senior Dev
Donator
Developer
#11
Current balance changes for today

Scout
- Removed speed penalty from Baby Face Blaster, boost resets when hale uses rage

Soldier
- When using buff banner, crits become minicrits instead
- When using backup, number of zombie scouts spawned reduced by 1 everytime you used banner, from 5 to a min of 2

Pyro
- Reduced airblast rate by 2.5x

Demoman
- Nerfed shield equip from crits to minicrits
- Added 100hp on hit to Half-Zatochi

Heavy
- Added 25% faster weapon switch
- Minigun & Ho-Long Heater: added 25% faster spin up time
- Tomislav: added 50% faster spin up time

Medic
- Changed Uber and Crit from medigun to minicrit for all class, and defense buff for all class apart from Scout, Medic and Spy

Spy
- Almost doubled backstab damage
- Added Min and Max backstab damage, 500 and 1500
- Getting attacked while using cloak now damages you 70hp
- Banned Cloak and Dagger

Hales
- Increased Hale and Painis rage required from 2000dmg to 2500dmg
- Increased Vagineer rage required from 2100dmg to 2500dmg
- Reduced Gliched Robot rage required from 2200dmg to 2000dmg
- Reduced Painis rage duration from 10sec to 8sec
- Reduced painis max eat heal from 500 to 400
- Added defense buff to Gliched Robot when using rage
 

42

Badge Whore
Senior Dev
Donator
Developer
#12
Time for 2nd wave of balance discussions/bugs, not too much from me this time.

Scout
Baby Face Blaster - only take 2 or 3 hits to get full boost, which that should really be reduced like doubled, also rage resets doesn't work for all players which that needs to be fixed

Soldier
Battalion's Backup - zombies scout bleed effect still doesn't take damage which needs to be fixed
Market Gardner - generally deals little dmg which should be buffed

Demoman
Eyelander - Still have extra dmg on hit (250), which really should be kept to 195 dmg

Sniper
People complained how his climb is too small which needs a small buff

Spy
Hales can see spy's minicrit/crit effect when clocked or disguised, which that shouldn't really happen
Backstab seems to deal bit too much dmg in low players, which should be lowered
dmg taken while clocked isn't correct, to be fixed


Vagineer
A lot of people have said to replace his rage with buffed sentry, but a bit of complains on how much buff it should be, but here my thoughts on how sentry should be
- Level 2 sentry
- Very fast build rate, about 0.75 sec to finish it without needing vagineer to hit it
- HP scaled on number of alive players, about 150hp from each player with min and max of 300hp to 1600hp
If sentry is still too weak, give Vagineer very small stun range from rage

Still happy to hear suggestions or anything i've missed.
 

Likveh

I speak london
#13
Scout
- Remove speed penalty from crit o cola (not sure if it's still a thing).
Soldier
- Add higher hp regen or even really small ammo regen on conch to make it somewhat viable as an utility.
Sniper
- Permastunning hale with huntsman and blocking his ability to rage so impossible to escape unless someone knockbacks hale away.
- Razorback/Darwin should work like shield on demo.
Engineer
- Short circuit could remove rage on hit to not be completely useless.
Medic
- Would be great if mediguns had their own specific effects, but that would require a lot of balancing to not have broken/the-only-medigun-that-you-should-be-using ones.
Demoman
- Scottish Resistance gains minicrits on last RED alive instead of crits.
Vagineer
If that sentry rage happens, purge red-tape recorder or add a major buff to deconstruction. And if its sapped make sentry receive increased dmg by +/- 200% to punish hale for leaving it alone. (though without limits on spies his sentry will vanish either way).
 

42

Badge Whore
Senior Dev
Donator
Developer
#14
Scout
- Remove speed penalty from crit o cola (not sure if it's still a thing).
Only happens when crit a cola effect ends, but yeah crit a cola don't really need a nerf for that when we have bonk

Soldier
- Add higher hp regen or even really small ammo regen on conch to make it somewhat viable as an utility.
Was thinking of giving conch a lot more faster speed instead. Conch already have hp regen for it, but I could add ammo regen

Demoman
- Scottish Resistance gains minicrits on last RED alive instead of crits.
Last man Scottish isn't too much of a worry, as hes the only player hale can focus on. If it still a big problem i can just throw perma crit becomes minicrit to scottish

Engineer
- Short circuit could remove rage on hit to not be completely useless.
Nice idea

Medic
- Would be great if mediguns had their own specific effects, but that would require a lot of balancing to not have broken/the-only-medigun-that-you-should-be-using ones.
Was thinking of doing similar idea to PvM mediguns but not global, everyone nearby medic gets the effect. (Though i can imagine 8 heavies with 1 kritz medic can be too much, maybe limit on how many can have effect or reducing uber duration to not make it too much). That still brings the question what to do with Vaccinator.

Sniper
- Permastunning hale with huntsman and blocking his ability to rage so impossible to escape unless someone knockbacks hale away.
- Razorback/Darwin should work like shield on demo.
Will fix that, also sure about the shield, while also removing razorback recharge time

Vagineer
If that sentry rage happens, purge red-tape recorder or add a major buff to deconstruction. And if its sapped make sentry receive increased dmg by +/- 200% to punish hale for leaving it alone. (though without limits on spies his sentry will vanish either way).
Fought to mention about sapper, don't want to give 1 class with sappers too much to a single boss. Either just straight up ban or removing some hp to sentry when using sapper may work.
 

Likveh

I speak london
#15
Last man Scottish isn't too much of a worry, as hes the only player hale can focus on. If it still a big problem i can just throw perma crit becomes minicrit to scottish
I'm honestly biased against scottish as it can deal almost 6k dmg in 1 trap, it either does nothing or it's free 1.5k-6k dmg.

Was thinking of doing similar idea to PvM mediguns but not global, everyone nearby medic gets the effect. (Though i can imagine 8 heavies with 1 kritz medic can be too much, maybe limit on how many can have effect or reducing uber duration to not make it too much). That still brings the question what to do with Vaccinator.
For Med:
Quickfix could summon zombie scouts on uber + maybe some slight speed boost while healing + minicrits (might be too much though).
Kritz minicrits/defensive buff on heal -> on uber crits + defensive buff applied to medic so he doesn't die when hit once.
Stock is perma minicrit + def buff and grants invulnerability on uber.
For Vaccinator, I'd say give it 3 modes:
- Mobility - slight speed/jump boost to you and your target, uber increases the buff, or just summon fewer or worse zombie scouts on charge [quickfix]
- Defensive - slight dmg resistance/bigger overheal, uber increases the buff or perhaps it could give 1s of invulnerability [stock]
- Offensive - crits on uber, nothing without (takes 2 charges maybe?) [kritzkrieg]
It should not outperform kritz/quickfix/medigun in any way, just be a hybrid of all 3, pretty much a jack-of-all-trades but master of none.

Fought to mention about sapper, don't want to give 1 class with sappers too much to a single boss. Either just straight up ban or removing some hp to sentry when using sapper may work.
Just a stab-like damage to the sentry and MvM sapper recharge might be good enough.
 
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42

Badge Whore
Senior Dev
Donator
Developer
#16
Finally got 2nd wave of balances ready, playtests soon

Current changes
Scout
- Added 40% knockback penalty on Force-A-Nature
- Temporary banned Baby Face Blaster
- Removed slowdown from crit a cola
- When there 3 remaining reds alive, scout gets 30% speed penalty

Soldier
- Conch rage
- Removed Uber bonus
- Added 1.5 speed bonus
- Added 1 ammo per second
- Increased Market Gardner, damage between 300 to 1000

Engineer
Short Circuit's m2 ball now removes hale's rage, about 3-4% on every hit

Medic
- All mediguns (apart from Vaccinator which is still banned) now gets area of range from uber, effect based on what medigun you use
- Medigun - gives uber
- Kritzkrieg - gives crit, 100% overheal penalty and removed 25% uber rate
- Quick Fix - gives megaheal & speed, removed overheal penalty and added 35% uber rate

Sniper
- Razorback and Drawin's Dagger Shield now acts like a demoshield

Spy
- Nerfed L'Etranger cloak on hit from 15% to 5%
- Fix hales attacking cloaked spy not dealing 70dmg
- FIx backstab dmgs
- Sappers now have 50% health penalty and 100% damage penalty for Vagineer's sentry, sappers still stun/disable sentry
- Banned Red-Tape Recorder

Boss
- Allow hales to use rage if stunned

Vagineer
- Removed reverse movement rage
- Allows Vagineer to build sentry from rage, lvl 1 sentry with 10x construction rate, 2x faster firing speed, and health based on how many alive reds.
- Vagineer rage also gives very small range scare, 1/4 of hale's rage